Extraordinary breaking news from our motherland.
The British Prime Minister Kia Starama has resigned.
Great news.
Changing leaders like John Terry changed his underpants.
Leadership is about inspiring people.
Finding a language that gets people to do something more than they might be prepared to do.
Is it time JT to consider having a German prime minister? Absolutely not.
Speaking of myself, how have I not been given opportunity in the English game? Actually, don’t answer that.
You two don’t answer that.
I get I get the impression you do the hokeyp kokei with it.
Isn’t there delusions of grandeur from English managers in terms of what they think they should be shoehorned into from the get-go? Simon, that’s nonsense.
I spent four years doing my badges, traveling up and down the country.
Did I think that I deserve the Chelsea manager long term? Well, welcome back to a new episode of World Cup Uncensored.
Uh, I’m Pierers Morgan.
I’m here in actually the south of France, uh, where it’s about, uh, just after midday, but my two cohorts, uh, Simon Jordan is in New York.
John Terry is back, I’m pleased to say.
We’ve subbed off Sha Dish, and we brought back the great JT.
He’s in Miami.
So, two of the three of us are where all the action is.
I’m where a different kind of action is.
Quasals, hot coffee, hopefully later some fine French red wine.
And I think my two cohorts would be delighted for me that that is the case.
Uh gentlemen, welcome back.
Uh JT, let me start with you.
Um, extraordinary breaking news in the last hour from our motherland where none of us are that the British Prime Minister Kia Starama has resigned.
What’s your reaction to this? Great news.
I said, listen, I said I said at the start of this P, I’m not getting into politics, so I’m going to pass this one quickly over to Simon.
Well, actually, I won’t come to Simon, but the the thing I was interested in, it’s not about the politics, uh, John.
It’s more about what it takes to be a leader.
You know, I’ve always felt of all the leaders I’ve met, whether it’s in sport or politics or any form of of business or anything like that, that leadership skills are the same wherever you are.
And it seemed to me Star wasn’t a leader.
Now, forget him for a moment, but you’ve led your country.
You’ve been a captain.
You’ve led a group of people in an extraordinarily pressurized cauldron.
A little like being prime minister.
What do you think it takes to be a leader of something like either the England football team or the country in terms of the skill set you need? I think the skill set for a leader peers can be can be anything different really.
Um I think there’s different ways to lead and I’ve seen that over the years as well.
Like Frank was my uh vice captain for many years and he led the group differently to me.
I was I was always one that kind of uh understood the people around me and I think when you get people on board and and get them on the same journey as you and get them to get them to buy into what you’re believing in I think the journey becomes a little bit easier.
So managing people I think over the last 20 years probably more relevant today is probably the biggest thing.
And I think if you can understand and manage people, you’ve got a great chance of of being successful.
Yeah, I completely agree.
Simon, first of all, great to see you.
Welcome back to World Uncensored.
But what is your reaction to Kia Star’s resignation because it is a massive story in our country.
I’m doing interviews after this with Fox in America who are very keen to hear uh all about it.
What’s your reaction? Well, I think it was I think it’s an inevitability.
I mean the challenge is not what goes what what’s happened with Karmama is what’s happened happens next.
We have a landscape of it’s very easy to take people out.
It’s much more difficult to replace them.
It’s a akin to firing a football manager.
He’s taken it upon himself to step back.
I think it was inevitable this was coming.
The problem with Karma is I don’t think he really believed in very much.
I think he had uh a bit like to some extent Boris Johnson an opportunity to create something but very little value behind the things that he was subscribing to.
So he pivoted very quickly.
Now it’s very easy to sit from the outside in any position of observation whether you’re a journalist or someone that has an opinion and a pine upon what it takes to be a leader.
I’ve been a leader.
I’ve run businesses with several thousand people.
I’ve run a football club.
Leadership is very nuanced.
Of course it’s all about bringing people with you.
But every facet of leadership, whether you’re a footballer that sometimes has to lead by managing himself first before he before he sets an example for others, or whether you’re a person in influence that has to bring people with you.
And there is no oneizefits-all.
But the ultimate equation is you have to find the language that brings people with you.
You have to have the courage of your convictions and a bit of substance.
And you have to be able to have resilience and dig deep and be able to communicate across all of the uh the uh the landscapes of people that are listening.
Now, it’s very easy peers for you as a journalist, me as a a person that’s motivated by seeing things improve, looking at it saying, “Right, okay, in our space, let’s have a leadership election.
Let’s change the direction of travel.
” It opens another can of worms.
We saw this in the back in the back in the day with the Conservative Party changing leaders like John Terry changed his underpants.
And here we are now with an outcome that’s not been great for the country.
Look, I am I’m I am I I’m anxious and concerned.
But going to the original question, leadership is about inspiring people.
Finding a language that gets people to do something more than they might be prepared to do, something more uh than just the basic minimum of being good at what they do.
It’s about getting someone to really raise their level.
Yeah, I completely agree.
And I think the problem with Starmmer was he had 14 years in opposition, but when he finally got the job he craved, he didn’t have a plan.
You’ve got to have a plan.
Now JT, let me let me come back to you.
We’ve been we’ll have our seventh prime minister in 10 years coming up, likely to be Andy Bernham.
But forget that for a moment.
The England football team has obviously failed to win a tournament since 1966 when we won the World Cup.
We now look like we have a really great chance with a German manager.
Is it time JT to consider having a German prime minister? Absolutely not.
I’m not sure that’s going to go down too well.
I’ll tell you what, I tell you what, John.
I just had to see your face when I asked that question.
Well, you you should ask him, peers.
I’ll ask him myself, John.
I mean, I I see that you uh have liked a few tweets of Rbert Lowe’s.
Now, having done business with Rupert Low, I I don’t know what I wouldn’t elect him to a parish council, but if you were playing again, John, and and and Rupert Low was the was the chairman of Southampton, would you have signed for such a wonderful leader then? Definitely not.
Definitely.
Well, it depends how much he was offering me, actually.
No, I wouldn’t.
No, there we are.
There we are.
I’m feeling very uncomfortable talking politics here, guys.
I’m I’m feeling so out of my depth.
All right, let’s move on to more comfortable things.
John, um, we we didn’t have you in the last episode.
We had Sean Dish.
Um, you’ve come back.
Uh, Sean has some interesting things to say actually about the fact that he believed English managers have been overlooked and that foreign managers get judged in a different way and there’s a kind of perception they’re always going to be better than an English manager.
What do you think of that? To be fair, in a way I I agree with him.
I don’t think the opportunities are given to the English managers, but I have to say when I listened to it, Simon would um Simon was spot on with what he said.
We’ve not been good enough.
And I I just I just believe that as English managers, we’re not seen as these guys who really understand football and the oracles of football and and players that have been there and seen it and done it.
But I just don’t feel we’ve ever been given the top managerial jobs with top budgets at a top football club.
Yeah, Frank was in at Chelsea, but he didn’t have the budget that Jose had.
Um, it was a time where we couldn’t sign players and all of that.
So, I I feel like we have one or two, and I think Frank will be in that equation for that.
Eddie how before uh Tukul got the England job was probably favorite for the England manager job.
Done very well with Newcastle, but then didn’t get a look in in terms of England.
But I don’t think there’s there’s five or 10 top young English managers out there firstly.
Now, I don’t know why that is, but I also believe that we don’t get looked at in in the correct way either.
I mean, I look at Amir and what he done in Portugal.
Does that suffice to be becoming the the next Man United manager? Absolutely not.
Does Does winning the the the championship last year with Coventry for Frank allow him to then go and be United manager or or England manager? With the World Cup in three different countries, there’s a lot of travel for the fans, the players, and the media, too.
Our own John Terry has been on television in South Africa and in the stands for England’s opening game in Dallas.
I’ve just got back from New York, where the final itself will take place.
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John, but why why would you say that Amarin? because there has been a sea change in the Premier League when you first saw it launched in 1992.
It was predominantly in fact it was exclusively British managers.
I mean let’s listen let’s let’s let’s make sure that we categorize it properly British managers because arguably the greatest manager in the Premier League has been Scottish.
So you look back and say over the period of time over the 32 years 33 years of the Premier League we’ve seen a sea change from having exclusively British managers to having overseas managers.
You make a point there, John, about Amarim and why he would qualify to be Manchester United’s manager.
He qualified to be Manchester Man United manager because he was winning things in a decent league, whereas Michael Carrick has been shoehorned in on the back of a catastrophe at Man United and given opportunity.
Now, you’ve played in dressing rooms, John.
You’ve played predominantly for foreign managers.
when you look at it because the old argument, John, was without that dominating this conversation, it was idiot owners that employed overseas managers and bought overseas players because it was cheaper.
It was economically easier to do.
But over the years, we’ve seen now foreign owners, foreign managers, foreign players, foreign coaches, foreign fitness coaches, foreign this, foreign that, foreign another.
It has to be because there’s something amongst the British coaches which has deteriorated over the global audience.
So when you look at it, John, you’ve played for for English managers, you played for Bruce at Aston Villa, you played for foreign managers at Chelsea.
You can tell us you’ve played for them.
What’s the difference mate? Well, also just just alluding to your uh your Amarin one straight, I don’t think the Portuguese league is a good league.
So I don’t think I think the Championship is up there as good a league as as it’s where Mourinho came your hero.
He is my hero.
Yeah, but that’s when wins with when Amaran wins with with a team I don’t I don’t think that allows you to then become the Man United manager and also he then fails at Man United and then he’s going to walk into another big job as well.
It it just feels like the English managers I mean Ashley Cole for instance has to go to Italy last year a manager side for for eight games.
How has Ashley Cole not given not been given opportunity in in the English game? How have speaking to myself? How have I not been given opportunity in the English game? Actually, you don’t answer that.
You two don’t answer that.
I get I get the impression you do the hokeyp kokei with it.
You one minute you do want it, the next minute you don’t.
Isn’t there Isn’t there delusions of grandeur from English managers in terms of what they think they should be shoehorned into from the get-go.
I’m an elite player, so subsequently I should be shoehorned into a management job.
Isn’t there a little bit of that going on with the English guys? Yeah, but I would say I let me if I can jump in there.
I will say this when I saw I mean John let me ask you a difficult question but when Rinor was made the manager of Chelsea, the idea that he would do a better job for Chelsea than you with all your experience and the fact that blue blood run through your veins, I thought that was it was borderline offensive to you that they would choose somebody so out of his depth, so amateurish, so kind of weird over someone like you.
I didn’t understand that.
Now, Pier, you’re 100% spot on and Simon can have his view on it.
But firstly, I’ll address the Chelsea one.
So, for me, it’s I’ve never thought that I could be Chelsea manager.
When there’s an opportunity comes up and a manager leaves the football club and Chelsea are looking for an inter interim manager, there there was no one in the building or the buildings, the academy building or the first team building that was more qualified than me in terms of their qualifications.
More importantly and above all of that, whether it was for one game or two games, there was no one more Chelsea than me.
And again, touching the supporters of game, give the supporters what they wanted at that specific time.
Now, did I think that I deserve the Chelsea manager long term? Absolutely not.
Because Chelsea is way bigger than me.
I need to if I want to go into that, I need to go on my journey to then eventually get the Chelsea job.
So, that’s that’s the Chelsea issue.
Going back to Simon’s bit about the okey koke, Simon, that’s nonsense.
I spent four years doing my badges, traveling up and down the country.
I spent four three and a half years at Aston Villa being assistant assistant manager to Dean Smith, living away from the family to then enable myself to then walk into a job or get a job.
And I’m not talking Premier League level or championship level.
The jobs I interviewed for were were for League One and I still didn’t get the the opportunity to go and do that.
John, with with respect with respect.
Right.
First of all, this isn’t a particularly grown-up conversation because first of all, Pierers, you’re characterizing Liam Msenior incorrectly.
Because the reason why Liam Rs was given the Chelsea job, as flawed as it was and inconceivable that he was going to have the toolkit, was because he’d been under Blue Co’s management at Strasborg and was illustrating the capabilities and characteristics of someone they wanted to invest in.
And because Morasco had a bloody turn, they brought him forward too early.
So, there’s lots of reasons.
Now, I don’t know.
You’ve literally just You literally just talked to Hang on.
Hang on.
Hang on.
You’ve just talked about why Amarin should not have got the big job at United because the Portuguese league isn’t good enough.
We just had that conversation, right? And then now now the argument is Reno who is a you know middling performing German uh club in a league which most people know French sorry French sorry French uh league which most people know is you know really not a good league at all.
So I you know again the parallels are the truth is Mourinho comes out of the Portuguese and he’s a world and he’s a world beater.
Amarin was out of his depth.
Rinor did well in the French league kind of meaningless did appallingly at Chelsea right so I don’t think there’s a natural correlation between people doing well in poor leagues and and then but I would say this if you look at Michael Carrick and what United did with Carrick right so Carrick Carrick’s given the gig when Amarin falls on his sword or is pushed on it so Carrick comes in and he takes his chance and out of that he proves himself and is now the Manchester Manchester United full-time manager that could have happened with John at Chelsea, I do think he’d done the hard yards, I do think he’d done the oie kokei, had he been brought in and had he revived Chelsea in those games after a senior, he could have been Chelsea’s answer to Michael Carrick.
Well, we’ll see Pierce with the greatest respect of in the world, neither of you have owned a football club and neither of you have interviewed managers to be in an employment position.
So with with a great deal of admiration from John Terry which I do have and I think he has the capability of being a leader in any space he goes in there is a lot more involved in employing a manager and the gist of this conversation has sort of spiraled off as to the reasons why we don’t have a group of English managers that are capable of managing the national side.
I’ll go to your point about Eddie how by the way John you’re wrong.
Eddie how didn’t want the England manager’s job.
I interviewed Eddie how at the time when there was an opportunity for him to be considered he ruled himself out.
So he may ruled himself back in again but at that particular time he felt that his club career was a better opportunity for him with Newcastle and he wanted to do that.
I believe that culturally English managers have over the years been lazy, been unprofessional, have been disrespectful and don’t understand how to embrace technology or to embrace the evolutions of the game.
Now that has changed.
That has changed because foreign coaches have shown the way.
But but as far as Thomas Tukul is concerned, yes, it’s disappointing that we have to have a national manager from an overseas uh from an overseas entity.
But it is what it is and maybe the next turn of the wheel will be English managers.
And Shawn Dich was talking about the system failing him.
There’s plenty of opportunities.
You just have to be good.
Kieran McKenna was good.
Other people have been good.
Let’s hope that we can evolve into a situation where not only do we have elite clubs in England, that the only thing English about them is their bloody geography, but we can have some elite managers, too.
Okay.
Well, let’s talk about an elite manager who is a foreign manager, which is Thomas Tukul.
John, I was very struck by the impact that Tukul’s halfime team talk in our first game clearly had on the players.
You could tell by all the players who came out afterwards talking about it that whatever he said in that dressing room in those 15 minutes galvanized them to play a completely different way in the second half.
You know what did you make of that? And when you look back in your playing career, you know, what makes a great halftime team talk when the team’s struggling a bit? Just to give you a little insight.
So when you go in as a group of players, it’s often spoken about 15 minutes that the management team would often have five or seven minutes on their own of kind of discussing what’s happened in the first half looking at a couple of clips to potentially show the players.
But I think the top manager and the elite managers and I think TUCO is that at Halime when you’re going in and you’re you’re performing below par they all they always it’s not they regularly they always find a way of knowing what to say and when to say it and how long to say it for and to give you the belief to then walk out in the second half with a game plan that you’re going to win the game no matter how how you’re doing it.
They give you an idea and a plan how you’re going to go and kind of put that into action and the best managers do it.
Mourinho used to do it plenty at Chelsea.
You’d go in and we didn’t lose.
We wasn’t losing at halfime loads but often we’d go in one nil or 2-0 down and you’d walk in thinking we’re going to get a bollock in here and he would be so calm and collected and go listen things happen and it sounds like two calls done the same as well against against Croatia.
The boys come out, responded really well and and played.
I I was really impressed with how we played overall, but I thought the second half was was very impressive from us.
John, what’s the difference between a team talk that sends you out into a game and a team talk at Halime? Because when you come out because England in the first 10 or 15 minutes seem to be very fragile, very tentative and not really at it.
So, what team talk do you get that sends you out for the first 10 minutes of a game as opposed to the team talk that sends you out at Halime to perhaps repair or challenge what you’ve done in the first half? What’s the difference between the two team talks, John? Well, I think looking at what the players have spoken about and going into these big tournaments as well, Simon, there’s loads of pressure on the boys, right? Going into it, you want to get off to a good start.
You want to play well.
You want to you want to get a feel for the ball early on.
Now, now clearly you go out and go want to start well, want to set the tempo early.
You go out and you you actually realize as a player that you’re probably a little bit safe and a little bit kind of careful in your in your passes or your movements or whatever that may be.
You come in at halfime and it sounds like two calls then turned around and gone, listen, we we can go down that route and we can win or lose the game or we can play the way we want to play, which is attacking, direct, really good, exciting football and if we lose, we lose.
But we go out playing the way we want to play.
And it sounds sometimes that’s such a breath of fresh air from the manager to say that that regardless of the result, we’ll be fine.
We we’ll win the next two games.
Let’s if we’re going to lose, we we lose playing the way that we want to play.
And sometimes it if I could if I could jump in there, John, just quickly, I think that may have been the crucial difference in that moment between Tul and Gareth Southgate.
And I’m I’m a big fan of Southgate.
did an amazing job with England, but there was always this sense that he he was timid about releasing the handbrake and that if he’d done that at crucial moments when we had a chance to win tournaments, we could have got over the line.
Tukul is a different animal.
I think when he said that to them, I don’t care if we lose, but we’re going to play the way we played in training.
And from all the player accounts, by the way, about the training, the intensity, which apparently we were training in the Ronald’s World Cup was off the charts.
So I do think Tukul’s a different animal in terms of the team selection for Ghana.
John, would you make any different any changes to the starting level? The key one, and you’re the perfect person to ask.
A lot of people felt the weak spot uh in that first game against Croatia was the was the defense and in particular the central defense pairing of Stones and Concert.
Would you keep with Stones or would you bring in Gahhee? Now I would have probably started Ghee the first game anyway.
So So Mark would come in for me for this next game.
I I think him and Ezri have kind of worked well in the buildup to this World Cup and it was a surprise I think for all of us that Stones come in.
Now, Stones is a world-class player without a shadow of a doubt, but hasn’t played much football coming into this World Cup.
So, I was as surprised as anyone.
Um, so I think that would be the first change that the manager makes.
I personally would would start Rashford and Saka.
I think they both have to play.
I think Gordon and Madawi, who we spoke about on a previous episode as well, that listen, they’ve both got electrifying pace, but I just think they both lack that quality in the final third of the pitch.
So I think Rashford and Saka have to play and I think the impact of Madaweki and Anthony Gordon coming on with the pace and the threat they’ve got are a real threat for 15 20 minutes of a game not for 90 minutes and I I’ve said coming into this I think it’s going to be a moment tournament players coming on making a difference and I I actually think for 20 minutes those guys can do that.
Do you like the concept John of changing a winning team? I mean, isn’t the dressing room, you know, sort of predicated upon momentum, continuity, stability, everyone knowing where they stand, people doing good jobs? Isn’t that a a fundamental part of building a winning environment, a bit of stability? I think consistency is a big part of that and relationships as well.
So, I think from a from a defensive unit and a defensive point of view, I’d like to see that stayed very very similar throughout the tournament.
Now, we just spoke about will Mark come in.
I think he will.
So there’s your first change defensively, but I think if that remains very solid and consistent and people stay fit, Reese James as well in that, I think your midfielders other than Declan really that can change and that can kind of vary throughout the tournament and players can can come in because again wide men strikers they’re confidence players Pier Simon they’re always kind of either going to be here or they’re going to be down here.
So coming on for 15 20 minutes might suit certain types of players and I feel that as a defender you’re a little bit more robust.
You you’re very solid.
You’re very consistent.
I think wingers can be inconsistent and they will have moments in games.
So I I think that can vary out um throughout the pitch.
Me you know Harry Kane is obviously brimming with confidence and he looked terrific as he has done all season.
Mbappé looks like he’s on fire.
Messi has started brilliantly.
Uh you look at all these all these guys, they’re all turning up.
It’s a it’s turning actually into a brilliant tournament, I think.
Uh and the the audiences are huge.
Crowds are great.
I I think it’s really good.
Um the one who’s not turned up yet is getting unbelievable peltters is my old buddy Cristiano Ronaldo, who is being singled out for a pretty mediocre Portugal performance.
To me, the biggest problem watching it was that Fernandez disappeared and he’s supposed to be the Premier League’s player of the season, which he shouldn’t have been because it could should have been Declan Rice.
But in terms of Ronaldo, John, we we talked in an earlier episode about Ronaldo v Messi.
Park that to one side.
There is there is a a belief from a certain constituent of football writers, pundits, and so on that Ronaldo is over the hill.
Uh, I’ve countered this by saying, “Well, he scored a lot of goals in qualifying for a guy who’s over the hill.
” When you look at him, do you think he’s over the hill? No, definitely not.
And one thing you don’t do with world class players like that is write them off.
Now, was he poor the other night? And were Portugal poor as a whole? Yes, I thought they both were.
Um, is Bruno Fernandez the future of Portugal? Yes, he is.
So, he’s he’s integral to that as well.
But I certainly wouldn’t be sitting here writing Ronaldo off.
I think Portugal have got more to give in this in this competition.
I think they’ll go further.
And I think Ronaldo plays a part in this.
But I I’m not obsessed with Ronaldo having to start.
I’m not obsessed with him playing every minute of every game either.
And I think Martinez is is big enough and actually see something pre pre-tornament saying that if he feels that he he doesn’t start, he doesn’t start.
And you, you know, again, Ronaldo’s a wide player and a moment player.
If you see him coming off the bench for 15, 20, 30 minutes of a game, you’d be petrified as a defender.
Not only is his technical ability in terms of set plays and dead balls, but the moments and the magic that he can create, but listen, he certainly wasn’t at it, but I’m I’m expecting bigger and better things from him for sure.
Yeah.
I mean, Simon, it’s interesting to me because I would say, and correct me if you think I’m wrong here, but if Messi has a quiet game, all hell doesn’t break loose in the way that it does with Ronaldo.
There is a kind of double standard about the way they get treated.
What do you say to that? It does because it it does it does for me.
Sorry to inter I know you directed this at Simon but the last World Cup the first game when Argentina lost their first game Messi come under so much scrutiny that he was walking about wasn’t the player he was.
So so again again again I was one I was doing TV at the time and I didn’t write him off.
You don’t write these top players off.
Ronaldo falls into that bracket.
These two are worldclass players and and the best we’ve probably ever seen.
So again I I kind of disagree with that but I certainly would never write him off.
No, that’s a good point.
It goes with a territory peers.
If you’re the biggest players in the world, you get more scrutiny.
And if you’re not at it or across it or on it and you set you fall below the standards that people uh expect of you and I think it’s incorrect to expect Ronaldo to be at a standard that he’s been at for years.
He’s 41 years of age.
It’s a practical impossibility.
Is it the same thing? You like to suggest that people are writing him off and slaughtering him.
No, he is he is a diminished proposition because he can’t possibly operate at that level.
He is passes best.
It’s not offensive thing to say just because you’re, you know, a huge admire of his.
Do I think Portugal are likely to be a better side without Ronaldo in it? Probably.
But there is also the flip side of that.
As you said the other day, Pierce and as Sha Dich said, the image of um Ronaldo on a pitch is psychologically disadvantaging the opposition at times as well.
So look, Ronaldo catching some flak, he’s a big boy.
He can, you know, he can he can price it into his thinking.
And I wanted to ask you a question going off piece, John, and it’s um it’s a broad question.
If you were playing now, which manager would you have liked to play for? Tukul or Southgate? Too cool is my instant answer.
Listen, I’m a big fan of Gareth as well.
And I’m not saying too cool to kind of disrespect Gareth because I I think we all appreciate what Gareth done with this group and this team, but I think we we’re all in agreement, certainly us three, in terms of making big decisions and and creating environments that that have people on the edge as well.
I don’t know if you guys have seen the clip of training in the week when the manager is uh he’s speaking to Jed Spence and demanding more from him in training, saying not good enough, too sloppy, too lazy.
like I I love stuff like that.
As a player, you’re always on your toes whether you’re doing a warm up, these managers are around it and they don’t miss a beat.
And I think Tu is that.
So I I believe that in in tough moments for for the England group, which there will be, he will he will be able to make those decisions and and he he’s certainly not afraid to kind of let the players know that.
And I like the fact that players are a little bit scared of him.
I’m not sure about his outfit, by the way.
There’s a question, John, which is a tricky one because it’s been made tricky for the England players.
But we have a unique situation in this World Cup where there are now two stars of this World Cup, Hakeime and Partee, who are both facing rape uh charges and will go to court.
And uh Party will play against England uh tomorrow night.
And apparently what the uh England football chiefs have decided is it will be left to the individual players as to whether they shake parties hand.
Now we’ve kind of touched on this before, but it is it is a very complex issue because of course he’s innocent till proven guilty, but these are very serious allegations.
If you were there as an England player, how would you handle that? Listen, I think they’re all big boys and they make their own decisions, but you know, I think you do the right thing in terms of millions of people watching.
Like you said, peers, it’s innocent until proven guilt.
And I don’t know the facts or the ins and outs of the case.
So, um I’m certainly not in a place to comment.
But if you’re asking me, would I shake the players hands? Yes, I would.
And I think the players are big enough to to kind of make their own decisions on that.
Yeah.
Simon, what do you think? We’ve we’ve discussed this before.
It is a minefield.
But do you think the players should shake his hand? I mean if you don’t it becomes an enormous story.
Well that’s exactly right Pierers and as John has said we discussed this on the other show and I talked about it from the principle of being a club owner with a player facing that sort of allegation and what it looked like and moving from allegation to being charged is a different barrier to me.
So, as I said to you on the last on the last discussion we had with Sha.
Um, if he had moved from an allegation to being charged, I would take him out of commission uh because I think it would be for the better interests of the reputation of the club and everything that goes with it.
But as we have said and discussed repeatedly and endlessly and rightly without any without any deterioration of the values of a victim that you are innocent until proven guilty and judging people, be careful how you judge people because one day someone will come along and judge you.
So, I think it’s entirely appropriate that players um do what they want to do, but I would suggest that shaking hands is probably the right thing to do until such a time as someone’s been found guilty.
We know this controversial situation.
We know that he’s allowed to play in uh the US, but not allowed to play in Canada.
It’s a bit more nuanced than that, but I think it’s right what John has said.
I think what John has said is absolutely right.
Yeah, I agree.
Um, John, we saw the most extraordinary moment I think I’ve ever seen in a World Cup where Paraguay’s Miguel Almarin became the first player to get a red card for covering his mouth while talking to an opponent during the match against Turkey in San Francisco.
Now, this of course follows that uh pretty infamous incident that we saw involving Benius Jr.
uh last year where he accused Benfica’s Jan Luca Preslani of racist abuse whilst spewed whilst you know putting his hand over his mouth.
Um he denied it Presliani and following UAE for investigation he was found guilty of homophobic conduct and banned for six matches three of which were suspended.
It is a bizarre thing to watch though and also there’s the backdrop that a lot of players I’ve noticed I see a lot of Arsenal players do this they do that to talk to their colleagues or their coach or whatever because they don’t want anyone to pick up through lip readers or whatever what they were saying not because they’re being abusive but because they want to say something which they want to keep private.
So it’s an interesting thing to watch a player getting sent off.
Now, it looked like he probably was saying something offensive, but we don’t know.
Is this a step forward or a step backwards, do you think? I’m not sure to be honest.
I I was watching the game myself and I it it was just bizarre.
It was It was always going to happen because they enforced the rules.
So, when you enforce the rule that that they’re obviously going to send people off for it, but I just don’t think I I personally don’t feel football is moving in the right direction in terms of all the the rules and the regulations.
and this probably falls under that bracket.
Now, do we need to stop the the racism side of stuff and the comments and and all bits like that? Yes, absolutely.
Is this going to resolve it? I’m not sure.
But I I I don’t know.
I don’t like to see it in in in such a big competition or I don’t like to see it kind of tested at the very first stage in in in the World Cup.
Should it been tested in a kind of in a in a in a league or for a season before the World Cup? Possibly.
But you know um it’s unfortunate it’s happened to that player if nothing’s been said.
No, it has to be John.
John, it has to be John.
John, you yourself have had situations on a field and and allegations of things that have been said.
We’ve moved into a situation where there’s so much um being thrown around of what people do and don’t say.
And without diminishing it, they the observation about racist abuse has massive challenges and massive ramifications.
and players are losing their reputation and livelihoods or pay players are being mortally offended by observations.
So the idea that players originally can lift their shirts over their mouths or put hands across it.
Yes, it’s a wonderful world whether we’re so desperately keen to find out what tactics they may be saying to one another.
But we have to eliminate the issue of debate about what’s being said for the preservation of both parties.
not the the victim of the circumstance and the alleg person that’s alleging or the person that’s been that been that’s been said something about that can’t defend himself.
So there’s no real reason there’s no reason really for players to protect their mouths or to protect shirts over their mouths when they’re in the middle of a conversation with another player.
So I whilst I don’t think it’s nice and we have seen this before.
We’ve seen the situation where V was trial in the World Cup.
So with respect to the observation that it should be tried domestically, it actually should be tried on the biggest stage and then filtered down to the domestic league.
So whilst I think it’s a sad day that we have to do this, this is the world that we live in and it’s actually for the preservation of players, John, as much as it is for the for the for the uh for the consequencing of of bad actors.
Yeah, Simon, I like I said, you don’t want to see it in in today’s game.
You you definitely don’t.
But again, if I flip that back to you, if if England make the World Cup final and Declan Rice after 10 minutes kind of goes like that and speaks to Harry Kane and they both do it and they both get sent off, are you going to be sitting there going, “This is a really good draw.
I’m so delighted we’ve brought this into the World Cup because eventually it will happen, players will be talking and someone will do it accidentally or But John, that’s a silly example because if Declan Rice is talking to Harry Kane, you’re not going to send him off.
If if Declan Rice XYZ player, let’s not use a particular person, has a conversation with an opponent and the opponent recoils with some offense, then you’re going to be in that situation.
So the the moral of the story is to some extent as players don’t do what you’re not supposed to do and learn the lesson particularly quickly like descent and going John’s raised an interesting point.
Not necessarily England player to England player.
I don’t think you’d be sent off for that.
But it raises a point about well what are the circumstances and who’s the judge and jury here? For example, there are many Arsenal players playing in other World Cup teams.
You know, if one of them comes up to Declan Rice and does that instinctively because they’ve done it on the pitch at Arsenal, but he doesn’t mean any malicious intent, but he’s seen doing it through consistency.
Is he going to have to be sent off? And that is, I think, the kind of thing John’s talking about where players who know each other, who are friends, may do it instinctively to make a comment about a referee or whatever and then suddenly find themselves transgressing and if they’re consistent, they’re going to have to get sent off.
You’re not but you’re not going to see if you’re two friends playing in the opposition and you’re talking about the inadequacies of referee, you’re not going to see the other opponent recoil, are you? As if some awful things happened to him.
And I would imagine peers, like there is in most instances, despite the absolute vilification of it, there’s going to be some degree of subjectivity where referees are going to be able to make an educated and informed decision.
And John’s probably right.
It overlays another raft of of scenarios into refereeing and playing.
But unfortunately, this is now where we are.
What’s the alternative? people making allegations against one another and players getting sent off for something they did or didn’t do or or being or being reputationally destroyed for something they did didn’t do.
This is the lesser of two evils, I suspect.
Yeah, it may be.
I mean, I could see a scenario where I remember Ronaldo winking after Wayne Rooney got sent off in a massive game between Portugal and England.
You know, you could see a situation where people that know each other but maybe don’t play for the same club, but they know each other have a bit of banter with the hands and then one of them recoils in a fake way because he thinks you may get the other one sent off.
I I would not put that past certain people playing this World Cup.
But let’s just change a tax.
It always goes back to Ronaldo, doesn’t it, Simon? Simon, have you noticed that? He always to Ronaldo.
I know.
I saw I saw that, John.
this I chose to ignore it.
I Well, only I was actually being critical because I remember Ronaldo doing that and I didn’t like his his crafty wink.
I’ve told him that.
Um John, let’s talk about something Roy Keane said because I think this is right up your street.
Uh he’s criticized the wives and girlfriends of England footballers for wearing shirts displaying their partners’ surnames during the World Cup.
He told the Overlap podcast, “Children is fine, but all the wives and partners were in their jerseys with their name on the back.
Wow.
The wives a year later, they’re separated, most of them.
Wow.
And they’re all getting pictures and we’re like, “Look,” and they’re pointing at Jimmy or Johnny on the back.
Um, this it sparked outrage this um you have a lovely wife.
How would you feel if you were still playing for England if she wore JT or John on the back of a shirt watching you? Would you think that crossed a line or would you be bursting with pride? I I think everyone’s entitled to to do what they want to do.
I I think if if she was doing it in the Premier League when I was turning up at Stanford Bridge, I’d be a little bit worried, peers, to be honest.
But I think doing it in in Miami, Boston, or New York, where the weather’s a little bit better, I actually don’t mind it.
I like to see the kids and the family members in it.
I actually get more worried when I see grown men like yourself wearing an Arsenal shirt on the pitch at the end of at the end of a season.
To be honest, be uh Simon.
Yeah, I mean I do proudly wear my Declan Rice shirt.
Um, and I am 61 years old.
Is that slightly more embarrassing, do you think, than a wife, one of the wags doing it? The the bigger question for you in that situation is do you do wear the match day shirts that are the ones that are, you know, sort of fit per, you know, very comfortably or do you wear the stretch to fit ones on the field? Because I would suggest it’s probably the latter, right? Um, I think it’s fair to say my size shirt would be my size shirt that I wear with rice on the back is slightly bigger than the one he wears.
Let’s just leave it like that.
I I I look, I have no particular view.
What do you think of this debate? Roy Keane Roy Keane.
Uh, I I enjoy listening to Roy.
I think sometimes he steers into the pantoime villa uh villain side of things, but I think he makes observational stuff.
I think he makes bold statements.
I think it’s kind of incidental whether people wear shirts support their husbands or don’t support their husbands.
It’s a strange culture.
I’ve never been one despite being a lifelong Palace fan and owning the club that wanted to adorn myself in a palace shirt or a palace scarf.
It is what it is.
I can’t miss this opportunity to talk about want to talk about Scotland because I have to spend my time peers as you can appreciate surrounded by Scots that I often think are empty vessels making a lot of noise and every time they get a nil nil draw against England they want a bloody national holiday.
But I’m watching this Scottish team and I’m trying to work out what they’re doing, John.
I mean, there’s not a lot of bravery in the way they’re setting up.
And I know that if you open yourself up against better opposition, you can get your backside smacked.
But I look at the game against Morocco, despite giving a goal away in the first two minutes or under two minutes, which is a bloody nightmare for game plans.
They didn’t seem to want to make much of an impression on the game.
What’s your takeaway about Scotland going into this World Cup first time for 28 years and seeming to try and want to survive their way through getting out of the group stages? Is that the right thing for them to be doing with all these bloody wonderful fans, you know, descending upon the World Cup and making everybody love them? Yeah, for me it is actually.
It’s a long time since they’ve made a a tournament.
So for me looking at it with the third place teams qualifying I think they’ve got their eye on that and that’s their target coming into it because Morocco Brazil are really tough tough teams and opposition.
So get out the group and and and hope for the best from there.
I think for them I I think that’s a win for the Scottish side.
Well, Simon, the other day I was on Talk Sport with you and we were talking about this with Jim White, obviously, and I said, “Look, let’s be clear.
Scottish fans historically have only ever willed England to lose every single game.
” So, the idea that English fans have to be very like, “Oh, we want Scotland to do well, blah, blah, blah, is ridiculous.
” And I got an email following that from Sir Rod Stewart, probably the most famous Scottish football fan ever, saying he completely agreed with me.
It’s the banter between the two teams.
This idea that England fans should be should be emotionally bullied into being supportive of Scotland.
Look, I think the fans are fantastic Scottish fans.
I met a load of them in New York last week.
But honestly, I hope Brazil beat them 8- nil.
And if you think that makes me a bad person, ask every Scottish fan what they hope happens when we play Ghana tomorrow night.
They want us to lose 8- nil.
And that is part of the fun.
See, see, I agree emphatically.
And having a go at the Scots is like lowhanging fruit, which is incidentally what you’ll find under Rod Stewart’s kilt, I suspect.
I I am very happy to see the Scots.
I have no more motivation to watch the Scots win than I would have to watch Norway.
So I am absolutely in your camp.
Pierce, is there a big rivalry, John, when you were playing at uh international level? Did the Scots get on your nerves or did you want them to do well? Never wanted them to do well, but certainly not rivalry.
I think rivals have to be a team that’s going to kind of threaten you and give you a a threat and an opportunity to beat.
Scotland are not that.
Scotland are not a good side.
What what they are is together and they’re a group that’s kind of, you know, built on that and and have has been over years.
So I I I’m actually in disagreement with you guys.
cuz I’ve not got a problem with Scotland qualifying or or progressing through the group stage because they’re not going to go much further after that and and I’ve got people that play Steve Clark, an ex-colague of mine at Chelsea, John McGin’s playing there as well.
So, I’m actually the opposite to you guys.
I actually want them to do well.
Do I think they’re going to beat Brazil? No, I don’t.
But I think they’ll get out the group.
Well, I it would be great to see the Scottish fans stay on because they’ve been a fantastic adornment to this World Cup.
The tartan army in full in full blaze is a remarkable site.
Chaps, we’ve run out of time.
Thank you both very much indeed.
We’re going to reconvene on Thursday.
I’ll be back in London in my studio.
You boys will both be in New York.
Massive game for England of course against Ghana and then a massive game after that.
Well, by which time hopefully we’ll have top the group.
And there is a mathematical possibility, I read on X today, that we could end up in the last 32 uh or 16, whichever one it was, playing Portugal, which would be a real test for my patriotic skills.
Uh but gentlemen, thank you both very much.
We’ll see you on Thursday.
Always nice to see you.
Cheers, Simon.
Peace.
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