And this woman came up to me and she was so nice.
She’s like, can I have a picture? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then so you know how you get the side hug and she’s like.
What did he do? And you knew she was going to say what he did.
And it wasn’t like what happened to It was like, how’d he mess up? How’d he messed up? And I said, well, what makes you think he messed But why didn’t you just say no one messed up? Well, because I wanted to.
Because I wanted to keep this conversation going so that I can tell you about it.
This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Chase Home Lending.
Hey, little girl.
Welcome to D.
C.
, my brother.
I am so happy to be here once again.
Yeah, it’s good to have you in our town.
How’s it going? You had a little flight delay.
I had a little travel issue, but I’m not going to complain because we have been doing this for a little bit now.
No, it’s always a little dicey when you have.
When somebody’s gotta travel.
And I’m traveling in these streets like a regular person, so I gotta be careful.
So for those of you, it was a little bit of a weather delay.
Couldn’t fly into DC.
Had to divert our plane to Pittsburgh.
I ended up staying in lovely Pittsburgh for about five hours and.
I got here in one piece about midnight.
Always grateful.
And I was able to head over to my Airbnb without bothering you.
I didn’t have to wake you up at one in the morning.
I know, I know.
We miss having you stay with us though.
You’re such a Airbnb devotee.
I am.
I’ve really changed my behavior.
How’s this one? This one’s really nice, actually this one’s really nice because it’s just ordinary.
It’s like an ordinary spot.
Are you in a neighborhood this year? I’m in a neighborhood, can walk around and right across from a church.
How far are you close to? I’m about two miles from here, so it took me like 20 minutes to get here this morning, but That’s good.
It’s really a meat.
It’s good to have you here.
It’s good to be here.
And we’ve got a very special guest.
Today.
Very, very, very special, someone near and dear.
This is the episode that everyone’s been waiting for.
Ba-da-da.
With bated breath because we have my brother-in-law, your husband.
Mama The former president of the United States He made time in his busy schedule to come on IMO.
We are just so grateful.
We have the former president of the United States.
We’re honored.
To have Barack Obama join us.
Barack Obama, can you can you join us on? Come on out here.
Welcome to IMO.
Look at you.
Wait, you guys like it? Like each other? Oh, yeah, really, huh? That’s the rumor mill.
It’s my husband, y’all.
She turned me back.
Now don’t start.
I can’t.
It was touch and go for a while.
It’s so nice to have you both in the same room together.
I know, because when we aren’t, folks think we’re divorced.
Let me tell you, first of all, see, I’m in Wichita, Kansas for Austin’s Tournament.
And you know, this podcast has made me quite popular.
You’re famous.
And people come up to me all the time.
This woman came up to and she was so nice.
She’s like, can I have a picture? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then, so you know how you get the side hug, and she’s like.
What did he do? And you knew she was going to say what he did.
You know It wasn’t like.
.
.
It was like, how’d he mess up? How’d he messed up? And I said, well, what makes you think he messed Well, why don’t you just say no one messed up? Well, because I wanted to.
.
.
Well, because I wanted to keep this conversation going so that I could tell you about it.
Oh, Lord.
I was like, what? And she was like he did something, didn’t he? I was, like, don’t worry, everything’s fine.
And let me tell you, she was so happy you would have thought I gave her a Christmas These are the kinds of things that I just miss, right? So I don’t even know this stuff’s going on.
And then somebody will mention it to me and I’m all like, what are you talking about? There hasn’t been one moment in our marriage where I thought about quitting my man.
And we’ve had some really hard times.
So we had a lot of fun times, a lot of adventures, and I have become a better person because of the man I’m married to.
OK.
Okay, don’t don’t make me cry right at the beginning of the show that’s so don’t let me start tearing up now and welcome Welcome to IMO.
Get you all teared up.
See, but this is why I can’t talk.
See, you can take the hard stuff, but when I start talking about the sweet stuff, you’re like, stop, no, I can do it.
I love it, I’m enjoying it.
But thank you, honey, for being on our show.
Thanks for making the time.
We got, that’s great.
So we got a great show.
Of course I’ve been listening.
Yeah, what, any tips? Any, you know, any, any.
You know, I Yeah, I’m done.
Craig can tighten up a little bit.
You’re doing great.
Thanks honey, and that’s why we’re married for.
I got you.
She’s like.
.
.
I thought so.
See, now that’s what a brother-in-law is for, folks.
Absolutely.
Well, we’ve got a question today from a listener in San Francisco named Emma.
I want to hear from Emma.
And let’s hear from Emma so we can dive into this topic.
Hi Michelle and Craig.
I have three younger brothers and I’m a new mom to a one-year-old little boy.
What can we do to change the fact that we raise our girls and we love our boys? There is so much dialog on raising strong, independent women, but how can we raise emotionally intelligent, competent men? I am deeply concerned by the ideology promoted to my younger brothers online.
I want to raise a young man who sees through those ideas.
How can we energize the discussion around raising young men that want to change these oppressive and even violent dynamics? Now, before we dig in, you two have raised two wonderful daughters and have taught them numerous lessons.
And I just want to hear from Barack how you approached raising your daughters because this was obviously before you got to the White House.
So you were just like the rest of us, just a regular dad who’s having kids and going to work and trying to make time.
What was your strategy? Well, first of all, The most important strategy, whether it was a boy or a girl, was having the right partner.
And now that I’m not- That’s me now.
That I say even behind her back.
Every one of my young male staff members, when they talk to me about dating and relationships and what to look for, I say, look, the starting point is this person is going to raise your children alongside you.
And so I’ll be honest with you.
Michelle being Malia and Sasha’s mom, that made all the difference.
And I do think, for whatever reason, we had similar strategies in the sense that I think we both believe that you give unconditional love to kids, but you also give them structure.
That you’re always there for them and keeping them safe, but You’re also.
Saying as early as two or three, no, you can’t do that.
No, you can’t have that.
We’d explain we believed in explaining why.
But we also believed in being firm.
We had bedtimes and bath times and you know, you had to eat your vegetables even if you didn’t like them.
Right, right.
And you couldn’t act stupid in public and.
Couldn’t do it.
Couldn’t whine.
Couldn’t wine or throw tantrums and so we had, I think, a shared vision of how to, you know, what your mom always used to talk about.
You’re raising adults.
Right.
Yeah.
And so you’re starting off saying to them, your consequences for your actions, here’s responsibilities that we think you can handle.
Um, make mistakes and learn from them.
We had that.
And let me just say too, just so that people understand the kind of father Barack was from the beginning, is that he was an engaged father from the minute they were born.
And he wasn’t the kind a man that was like, I don’t do this, I don’t change diapers, I’ll hand them to me when they talk and I can relate, They make me feel comfortable, you know, we.
When Malia was a baby, we shared 50-50.
I took the night shift.
He took the- Because I’m the night owl.
He took a night shift, he’s the night owl.
And that helped me because I wasn’t sleep deprived because I would pump while I was breastfeeding, which wasn’t for a long time.
And I would go to bed at a reasonable bedtime and I could hand my baby, and I will say Mike, cause she was my baby over to this guy.
And know that she would be alive in the morning.
Right.
And he relished that time, but I also had to let go, right? I had to say, you know what? Whatever is happening between eight at night and five in the morning, I can’t micromanage that relationship.
They’re going to be okay.
She’s a baby.
He was the one who got her sleep trained because I wouldn’t have been able to handle letting my baby cry it out.
But over the course of a week.
I think it was three days, it wasn’t even a long time, at five months.
So once he did that, so we had kids who slept through the night from the time they were five months old.
So because we shared that responsibility and Barack owned a huge part of the girls as infants, it established a relationship between him and them that carries through even What you both have said brings me to a question that I’m going to ask, but I’m gonna contextualize it with the fact that after you guys became famous, people would ask me about you guys meeting and how you came about and the origin story and all of that.
And what I always talked about, and it warms my heart to this day, is that- Barack’s background is so different from our background.
I mean, it’s so different and everybody knows it’s, and I used to say in spite of the fact that we were raised so differently, somehow you develop the exact same values that we did.
So much of Barack reminded us of our dad.
Our dad, and the stuff he said, stuff you said, and it was like.
.
.
His consistency, his honesty, his, you know, his humor.
His humor.
His, your authenticity before people were using that word, authenticity, your calmness.
And it just, I brought that up because I think people who haven’t asked me that question know and probably want to know, how did that evolve? Yeah, it’s interesting cuz this relates to how I was thinking about fatherhood too, right? As I think most people now know, you guys certainly know, I did not know my dad.
He was in Kenya by the time I had memories, he left my mother and I when I was two, I met him once.
And so I’m really raised by my mom.
And my grandparents for about four years, my stepfather when we were in Indonesia, who was a very kind man, Maya’s dad, my sister’s dad and I have very fond memories of him.
But one of the reasons it worked was he didn’t pretend like.
But our relationship was more than it was, he was like, look, I married your mom, I love you, I’m gonna take care of you, but I understand.
Were different.
And then my grandfather was older, he’s white, generationally different.
A good heart, but he was troubled in a lot of ways and had issues.
So I didn’t have like the obvious role model the way you did.
Here’s how you are a dad.
And I didn’t really have a bunch of uncles around or other immediate family father figures.
So I’m kind of piecing it together.
Which is true for so many, that’s the story for so many boys growing up these days.
I mean, in that sense, I think as unusual as my background was, that part of it isn’t that unusual, right? It was kind of typical.
A couple of things happen.
Now, I was loved, and that’s a starting point, right? But the people who were around me cared about me, and I never felt an absence of that.
And the second thing I think you learn to do when you’re in that situation is all right.
Sort of, I have to adopt role models.
I gotta piece them together and get a sense of, all right, what does it mean to be a man? Now, later on, as I got older, you’d start recognizing that some of the ideas about manhood that were being given to us back in the 70s and the 80s, Not all of them are great.
Can I ask you both to talk about what that, what manhood meant for you, you know, what, what it meant for when you were little boys coming up, what you thought it was and what you then came to understand it to actually be.
I don’t remember maybe when I was a really young child, other than the idea that guys were strong, they didn’t whine, they were tough.
They were expected to go to work.
They worked.
And provide.
And protect.
Yes.
I mean, and I think back about that.
I think when I’m thinking about Dad as a role model, I remember the fact that here you have a man who has MS and he’s getting up and he is going to work absolutely every day.
Right.
And he is not complaining.
That’s another thing.
Men didn’t complain back then.
You don’t complain.
Your story.
You were.
I love that word stoic.
Coach Carmody used to use that all the time stoic, but our dad never complained.
He never got up.
He had a sense of humor.
That was another thing that you learned from guys is that you needed a sense of humor and but the most one of the most important things that I remember is that you got a wall.
Would got along.
You’ve got a long period.
Period.
You got along with the other guys you were with, you got along with your teammates, you’ve got along with your co-workers.
Nobody wanted to be considered a jerk.
That is true.
Some of the definitions of manhood, I think, were negative, right? You don’t whine, you don’t cry.
No emotion.
You’re not a jerk.
I do like the thing you brought up though about being a protector, because for some reason, that part of it I think appealed to me and at its best, it then counterbalanced the idea of being strong, right? Like you’re strong not to pick on people, right? Not to be a bully, not to dominate others.
Instead, it’s strength in order to protect, right? And for me, a lot of being a man was being self-sufficient.
The idea of I can handle myself and make my way through the world.
I tell this story, you’ve heard this story and sometimes people kind of freak out fairly early on because I was living in Indonesia.
Fly from Hawaii to Indonesia on my own, if I was visiting my grandparents, even the BHA.
And it was cool because stewardess was there, she’d grab you.
It put you in the seat and give you a little, if it was Pan Am, you know, they’d have a little flight and a little pin, a flight pin.
Yeah.
You know, give you soda pop and so I felt very grown up.
I didn’t mind.
So I was used to traveling pretty far distances alone.
And coming back from Jakarta, Indonesia, When I was at this point, probably 10, maybe 11, my mother, who was working there and was about to go into the field, dropped me off.
I had my little suitcase and she gave me a hug, love you, babe.
Then took off and she was about to actually leave the city.
Didn’t, didn’t walk into the gate, just the airport.
We were there and come to find out she’d forgotten to give me my passport.
Oh, wow.
So, and I didn’t really kind of find this out until I’m about to go through customs.
And so I’m problem solving a little bit here and I’m thinking, okay, Jakarta is a city of like 8 million people.
It’s not a small airport.
This is like being in New York or something, being in LaGuardia.
And there’s no cell phones.
Cell phones back then and whatnot.
So I’m thinking, okay, I think she had to stop by her office first before she left town.
I asked- Stewart, to leave the bag with him.
I go outside, and there are these little rickshaw type things called betchocks.
And I say, can you give me a ride to where my mom’s office is? And I don’t have any money, but I know if I get there, hopefully I catch her.
Get there, she’s just about pulling out.
I tell her, Mom, you forgot the passport.
Oh, by the way, I got this driver we got to pay and get back in time and make my flight.
And when Michelle hears this story, right, she’s horrified.
And I’m sure Kelly, if she heard this story would be horrified as well.
I have to say that for me, it was like, oh, I can handle this.
And I don’t remember feeling scared or worried.
Or neglected, I just remember thinking, okay, how do I figure this out? And I felt good about the fact that I’d figured it out.
And I do think that that element of being a man, for me, was important.
Now, keep in mind, my mother was 18 when she had me, right? So around this time, she’s not much older than Malia.
And in that sense, I think I.
Felt more protected towards her and didn’t feel as if somehow I needed to, that I needed or should depend on her in order to make sure that I’m handling my business.
Well, there’s a spectrum of parenting, I mean, they label it now.
There’s the helicopter and then there’s the, what is it, the jungle parent or the freewheeling, they call it something.
Free range parenting.
Free range.
Right.
There’s my in the free range category.
CATEGORY Love me to death You know, but they are, you know, the story you tell is the story of probably most kids.
A lot of kids.
Across the country.
If you know you’re a single parent, you don’t have somebody at home.
You know a lot of Kids are, they got to get up and make their own breakfast, find their way.
They’re doing that every day because there isn’t an alternative.
And figuring out what that balance is.
And figuring out what the, that’s exactly the point.
What is the balance? Is tough.
Which is very different from how we parented our kids, how Kelly is, and you and Kelly, you’re parenting your younger sons now.
Don’t you think part of it was also time specific in the sense that when we were coming up, the idea of kids just being out and having adventures and just getting home in time for dinners, especially during the summers.
Part of what happened, and I maybe affected boys a little more than girls, I don’t know, is that freedom, that sense of being able to build up resilience and a sense of competence and a since of I can manage the world around me because the stakes weren’t so high.
When I think about kids now on the South Side, same neighborhood where you guys grew up.
Chances of possibly getting shot or the chances of some other terrible thing happening are higher.
And I think that affected everybody’s parenting and it affected how we handle kids, right? So that now suddenly instead of just saying, all right, get out of here and come back for dinnertime.
Now it’s a play date and where are you? And do we know the parents where you’re And and so on and so forth.
We see a good example in it in one of my favorite shows on Netflix that has become the topic of conversation amongst a lot of people, particularly in black homes is this series forever, which is a beautiful story of young love in a black neighborhood and it is not traumatic and bad things don’t happen.
It’s just regular kids.
That reflects all of our lives in real ways.
And I know you watch some of that and Barack, you are well aware of it, but the show has created a lot of conversation in terms of how do you raise emotionally intelligent boys and what we get right and what get wrong, not just among boys, but kids in general.
Yeah, we watched it as a family.
We watched the whole series as a family and enjoyed it a lot.
And it was really fun to hear the boys talk about, you guys would have done that, or you guys wouldn’t have done that, that was eye opening as a parent.
Yeah.
You know, because they’re evaluating it.
They’re evaluating our parenting or they’re evaluating their parenting based on their own.
That’s crazy.
That’s the crazy thing Dad would do.
Yeah.
But this brings me back to Emma.
Emma’s trying to raise these boys, and so she’s trying to be somewhere between Forever and then the other show that people are talking about, Adolescence, which I haven’t watched yet.
It gets into sort of the misogyny that young boys are exposed to.
And the online, you know, they’re getting their parenting online.
They’re getting the notions of manhood from.
FRIEND FRIENDS Extremists? Extremists.
Well, let me ask you this, because let’s go back to the original question, all right? Emma’s trying to figure out how to raise boys.
I think we did a pretty good job of raising our girls, but I’ve said often that I think I would have had more difficulty raising a son.
So I agree.
Because I think I might’ve been more judgmental, harder, and I would’ve tried to, I’d like to think I would have been more self-aware enough to combat that, but I just think father-son relationships for me, particularly if I don’t have a dad around to show it to me, might’ve be more difficult.
Talk about, Craig, just how you thought about it.
Was it just, you took what your dad had done and you said, I’m going to do this, I’m gonna try the same thing? Did it change over time? It was a little bit of everything, but what you’re both saying.
Initially I thought, okay, I’m going to take what I learned from dad, all the things that I thought were positive, and then the couple of things that I felt were negative I was going to try and repurpose.
What were some of the positives? Well, just kind of the stuff that I named before, the willingness to get up and go to work every day, taking me with him to see what it was like to have male relationships, either at work, at the barbershop.
He didn’t go to the gym, but in places where men hung out.
The record store, we would go to record store every now and then, and he’d have a bunch of friends there.
That sounds like an old.
Idea going to the record store.
Oh, it’s Come Back.
Oh, has it? Okay, good.
But, but those were some of the positive things, you know, how to walk with mom when you’re walking down the street, always walk on the street side and holding the door and opening the door for her, allowing her to go in, it was just things like that.
And then, and then I, you, know, I’d have to really work at thinking of something negative that dad did, but.
Well, what about, let me ask this though.
I mean, you know, dad also came home, put his feet up, you know, he didn’t always cook or he didn’t do dishes.
He didn’t do.
But you have to remember that I was thinking at the time that was okay, because he was at work all day and he needed to rest and mom was always cooking.
So, but that’s a good one.
That’s a potential negative.
GENERAL very clear gender roles, and I thought, okay, I’m gonna do the positive things and then sort of expose Avery, who’s my oldest, to less of the negative things.
Mm-hmm.
And you have to remember, Avery’s 33, so he didn’t have to worry.
We didn’t to worry about social media.
There was very little internet stuff.
Mm-hmm.
You know, we really focused on how to behave out in public as a guy, or I should say, how to get along, how to treat girls, how to have conversations.
But with Austin and Erin, it’s more of how do you deal with social media? Yeah.
And which was in forever.
Mm-hmm.
The whole premise of the show, what are you supposed to say when you do that? Is this a spoiler alert? Spoiler alert.
Was a video that got leaked.
So we were constantly talking to them about that.
And now I have even more things to draw from because I raised Avery and there were some things that I was like, I wish I hadn’t done that.
I could have done that better.
I could have done that better.
Whether it was sort of teaching them how to drink me.
If you don’t know how to, you could end up in a bad situation.
More direct conversations about the first time you were with a woman intimately.
Mm-hmm.
Do you mean sex, Craig? I do, I do mean sex, and it’s funny how I was.
.
.
Crick out a little I was going to let him do it too, right? You made me nervous, I was just like, let me just let him get through this.
But, but, but.
.
.
Hey everyone.
It’s your boy, Craig Robinson here.
And if you’ve been listening and watching our show, you will know that I have become an Airbnb guy.
And I used to be a nonstop hotel guy.
But I got to tell you, I really enjoy finding a nice place using the guest favorites feature on the Airbnb app.
And the reason why I like it is because People just like you have visited many of these places and have rated them as their favorite.
And it makes it easy for me to make a decision when I’m planning my trips.
Just take this trip that I’m on right now.
I’m here in Washington, DC, knocking out a bunch of episodes for IMO.
And I am staying in a nice Airbnb in a wonderful neighborhood, in walking distance to great restaurants, to great coffee shops.
To the park.
And it’s really getting warm in DC.
And this place has a really nice back porch.
I can sit outside in private and enjoy the weather.
Relying on the guest favorites feature has made picking a place for me to stay even easier.
So the next time you’re planning a trip, why don’t you try the guest’s favorites feature on the Airbnb app.
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I love what you were talking about earlier.
And this was part of my thinking about being a man and being a protector was the little things, getting somebody’s chair, opening a door, standing up if you’re on the bus and giving your seat to somebody else, right? A lot of the basic things that also just had to do with being thoughtful, right? This was like being kind.
I mean, this was male expressions of kindness and consideration, right.
Be called common courtesy.
Tom and Curtis.
Can I ask, because as you guys are talking about these characteristics and traits, again, a lot of it is how to behave, the external part of you.
But I think what I hear that gets missed and was missed in you guys growing up in definitions of manhood was the internal self, right? Because all stoicism is external, manners, common courtesy, it’s all external.
Protecting, it’s all outward.
It’s like, how do you appear? I don’t want you to get arrested.
So you have to behave in a certain way.
I want you be polite because I want to be safe, right? And there’s not a lot of conversation at this table about, well, how you feel? And how are boys being taught to help sort through their internal selves? And it’s almost like you’re supposed to pretend like you don’t have an internal self.
An internal emotion of hurt or fear or all the things that are natural of any human, but definitely, you know, fears and emotions that young boys, adolescent men, grown men are feeling.
But there’s no talk in any of these conversations about being anyone, father present, father not helping boys guide through that piece of it.
It’s almost as if.
.
.
We are raising boys and pretending like their outward selves are the only things that matter and therefore who they are internally, how they process, you know, how they deal with fear and hurt like that.
That’s not even on the list of No, I would agree with you.
It’s not on the list because I don’t know about you, but during my upbringing, nobody talked about that.
So that you so you can even have that for you.
I wouldn’t even known how to have it, right? I’m just trying to think about the times when I felt insecure, that’s internal, or I felt fear, or felt some sort of way.
I can always go to dad and say, I’m feeling this because of something that took place.
It wasn’t I didn’t even know that I could be feeling this just inside and not it not manifesting itself.
It was always a discussion on something that it was some issue that had come up.
And so it was a problem solving conversation.
There was always a problem solving conversation.
Well, look, I do think that as part of the culture we grew up in was not that you didn’t have feelings, but you ascribe them to a certain situation.
Somebody’s messing with you.
You’re getting bullied at school.
You didn’t make the team.
How should you deal with this, right? And then there would be real conversations, but it very much was around All right, stuff happens in the world and you got to deal with it.
Then it goes back to the whole notion of being strong, self-reliant, don’t be a baby, etc.
I do think that one of the differences for me was being raised by a teen mom.
Young mother, was she would talk to me a lot about how she was feeling.
And in turn, I could talk to her about how I was feeling, and so I do think I developed some internal vocabulary around this.
And frankly, and I know this conforms to my nerdy reputation, my wife likes to tease me about, but books taught me a lot about emotions, like reading and movies and TV shows, etc.
But getting that sense of, oh, this is what people go through and developing kind of an inner monolog about situations, how are other people feeling, How am I feeling? I tried to.
.
.
Kind of piece that together and it was imperfect.
But at least there were avenues in which I could have those conversations.
Craig, I am interested in what you described in terms of your relationship with your dad.
So did that then carry over to how you interacted with your friends coming up? And was there a point in time where you thought? When I’m dealing with Avery or Erin or Austin, I need to maybe have a different approach.
I need to share more of my emotions so that they feel like they can come to me and talk about theirs.
What was that process? So the process was this.
I felt like once I had kids, I had to re-evaluate everything, which included my relationships with my friends and family and work and the whole thing.
And I realized when Avery was born, I needed to cut down my circle of friends.
To the serious ones because I’ve got some serious business of raising these kids when Leslie came along.
And it was about that time that it was probably the first time where I had really deep conversations with my male friends, where you started to understand, okay, something’s going on with this person.
Let me find out what it is.
Something’s going on with me, let me share it.
That’s the hardest part, at least for me.
One of the things you’ve both been good at is having male friend groups.
And studies show that the rate of loneliness among young men and older men has gone up, which pushes them into these manosphere spaces because it’s the only place they’re going to find community or to talk to one another.
Can you guys talk about how you both have managed to.
.
.
Maintain friendships.
What do you think is different about the way you guys have lived lives? I mean barack you maintain your friends through being in the white house But there are a lot of men out there in the world who say that they don’t have More than a couple of friends if that I was, in high school, mostly being raised by my grandparents.
And I ended up making a bunch of friends, a lot of them who were basketball players, but not all.
And it wasn’t until later that I realized actually they were all kids of divorced parents.
So they’re all being raised by single moms.
It was almost like we kind of created our little tribe.
A found community, a found family.
And you now know them all, Bobby, Tickham, and Greg Orm, and Mike Ramos, and- they were an opportunity for me actually to learn how to share.
And what that did teach me was that having male friends I could talk to and count on was important to my life.
Mm-hmm.
It turns out, actually, what we’ve learned is our families, our nuclear family, was healthier and happier precisely because we had a bunch of friends and we had essentially non-blood aunts and uncles and cousins and all that, who were around all the time, right? But even with my close male friends, there was a phase, you know, when we were in the 30s.
And into our early 40s.
First of all, we just didn’t have that much money.
So, and they were living in different places, so we couldn’t see each other all the time.
But we did stay in touch and.
Figured out and that lasted through the White House as I collected other friends and in Chicago and college and was just being intentional.
Hmm with your friendships, making the investment, knowing it’s important, letting them know they’re important to your friends, small gestures, all that stuff mattered.
And I do think that guys sometimes don’t.
Do that, like the idea is all right, well, if you’re around, we can hang out.
If it happens, it happens.
I know so many men who don’t call each other.
They don’t talk on a regular basis.
They’re best friends.
And it’s like, well, I saw him three years ago.
He’s my best friend.
Right.
And so I think I have gotten better about this.
And one of the things that got me through the White House was that those same three friends that I knew.
You know, and from high school, I saw them all the time, and Bobby Titkin became a, during most of the White House, was a commercial fisherman in Hawaii.
And Greg Orm was managing a yogurt plant in Oregon, and Mike Ramos was an accountant.
Yeah.
The sense of trust and the memories we shared and them having our backs and them loving our daughters and we set up this thing.
Michelle did this one of the best gifts I ever got.
And for my birthday was my 50th, and it was a rough time I was getting my butt kicked in the presidency.
And she organized my 50 birthday, brought all these friends from all my different walks of life to Camp David for a weekend.
And of course, being boys, we just started competing.
Same.
It was organized.
And yeah.
Competition.
And, and we had so much fun that we made it into an annual thing that we started calling Camp Athlon even after it was no longer Camp David.
And, you know, you get these, you know 12, 15 middle-aged men running around, you have bowling or you have Kai and Ping Pong.
I’ve witnessed it.
You’ve seen it.
Quite the spectacle.
It is quite the spectacle, yes.
But, the point is.
.
.
Just creating some structures where guys can get together.
And then in stride, in the flow, now a whole bunch of stuff is shared, talked about, etc.
That turned out to be something that mattered a lot to me.
But what’s been your secret to maintaining your friendships and? It’s been your last point of being intentional, and to Misha’s point- I would say in the last, let’s call it seven years, so that’s not long at all, I have, because of these kinds of discussions, I’ve picked up the phone and called my friends more often than I had done in the past.
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And, you know, one skill that has helped me over my years is adaptability.
You know, I started out as a college basketball player and was fortunate enough to get drafted.
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I went from being at an NBA camp to an overseas camp.
And I played over there for a couple of years and then came back to the United States and made another pivot.
And I got into the investment business, which was a brand new- experience for me.
So I had to be adaptable and I went from there back to business school and I had to adaptable yet again and be back into learning mode and subsequently after spending 14 years in the investment industry, I came back to basketball as a coach and it’s really important that I let myself learn, continue to learn, be adaptible and be willing to pivot.
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I do want to talk to Emma as a mother, because she’s a mother trying to figure this out.
And I do think there’s a question, like the original question of, why do we love our sons and raise our daughters? And I think that’s something worth sort of talking through among mothers, because sadly, many mothers are parenting alone, which is a huge problem.
Um I think Scott Galloway, there are other researchers out there who say that one of the challenges that boys face is that there just aren’t enough men in their lives.
The men have disappeared, whether through divorce or fatherhood, there’s small numbers of male teachers in high schools.
Boys are growing up in an education system where they’re mostly surrounded by women.
You know, Barack, you’ve talked about the fact that the entire education system- isn’t even designed to recognize boys and what they need.
So, what do we say to Emma? Cause again, we don’t know whether she’s parenting alone or whether she has a husband, but I do think that mothers struggle to figure out what do their sons need.
And so they wind up operating out of their own fears and their own instincts, which is to love unconditionally.
I think mom was like this.
She raised me to be tough because I think she knew what it was like to be a woman.
In her mind, she knew, what she was preparing me for, the insults, the limitations, the whatever you can think of, the sexism, the biases.
So she knew you have to have a mouth, you have be able to speak up for yourself.
With you, she He wanted you to be nice so that you wouldn’t get in trouble or you wouldn’t get arrested.
But was that who you were? So what do we say to the emas of the world? How do we sort of start thinking as a society about helping mothers raise sons because they’re doing it alone and we’re being told that we don’t have what it takes to give boys all of what they need.
Well, look, I think you started hinting at it.
As somebody who was raised by a single mom, not perfectly, but that unconditional love is a start is the right one.
I do think though, thinking about raising boys in the same way you’re thinking about raising daughters, which is how do you make them good responsible people who know how function and know how to.
Understand themselves well enough that they can navigate this really complicated world and setting high expectations.
So there are a lot of these things that apply to boys and girls.
I do think that there are some particular issues with boys that as a society, we’re not addressing.
I do thing as a Society, we have to create more structures for boys and men to have guidance, rituals.
Frameworks, encouragement.
To be able to meet a wide range of role models so that whatever their inclinations, they can see a path to success that isn’t just sports or money, making a lot of money.
And so that’s on all of us together.
What I would say to Emma would be.
.
.
Your community.
Even if you have a wonderful male partner who’s in the house, I think it still would be good to find.
Assets in the community, people in the community, friends in your community.
Places of worship, community organizations, what have you, where there are a bunch of men.
Who can be sort of elders to boys.
And so they’re not just looking at one particular role model, but many.
And one of the things I, when we, when Michelle and I first started dating and I’d go over to your guy’s house, one of things I loved was just.
Seeing all your uncles and your cousins.
And there were a bunch of different kinds of men.
There were men that were kind of soft spoken and then there were men that were loud and there were man who were engineers and then they were men who were police officers or they drove a jeep.
And that’s one of the things that I think a lot of times boys need is.
Not just exposure to one guy, one dad, no matter how good the dad.
That is, he can’t be everything.
He can’t everything.
And then that boy may need somebody to give the boy some perspective on the dead, right? Yeah.
One of the most valuable things I learned as a guy was I had a gay professor in college at a time when openly gay folks still weren’t out of life.
Who became one of my favorite professors and was a great guy and would call me out when I started.
Saying stuff that was ignorant.
You need that, to show empathy and kindness.
And by the way, you need that person in your A friend group so that if you then have a boy who is gay or non-binary or whatever, they have somebody that they can go, okay, I’m not alone in this, right? So that I think is creating that community.
I know it’s corny, but- And that’s what they need and we talk a lot about what we had with our mother and father Mm-hmm.
Right.
And, you know, a lot of times, but we really did have a big community of people in our lives.
I mean, that we don’t talk a lot about that on this show, we allude to it, but we, Craig and I, we grew up in a huge community of extended aunts and uncles and cousins and all types of male models, which helped in broadening out.
And filling in where our mother and father were limited.
So for Emma, I’m picking up a couple of things.
Community, big, not just a single mom or mom and dad, but a broad community.
And I can appreciate you using our family as an example, but uncles, but not necessarily blood, but men who can consent, who can give.
Kid or kids some contextualization of who their parents are.
Right, and can model, there are a lot of ways to be a responsible, respected, strong man, and you don’t have to be rich, and you don’t have to a professional athlete.
And you don’t have to go find it on the internet among a group of unclear influences.
And this is a thing that parents, Emma has to understand if her sons aren’t getting it, they’re going to look for it because boys need this.
Whether they think that they’re happy playing video games on their own end.
We haven’t even talked about how the rise in video games has sort of left kids feeling like, well, this is who I am.
I’m alone or I’m interacting through a game.
Virtually.
Virtually, but I don’t have any in real life friends.
Kids are going to seek out some kind of community.
So big community, I would emphasize because they need to have other outlets.
They have to be able to learn how to be more than just the sport that they care about.
And while they get great skills in sports and they learn a whole lot of traits, it isn’t music.
It’s not language.
It’s social in certain ways.
And so I think we owe it to our boys to be very deliberate.
About saying enough with sports and let’s try some other things.
Or at least encouraging them and exposing them to it in a way.
Look, sports was scaffolding for me to pull myself into manner.
Even as I was doing that, though, my mom was still dragging me to art museums, and I was still being taken to waiting for Godot.
I remember my mom took me to a Samuel Beckett play when I was like 12.
And I’m kind of sitting there like, what is this about? But you know what, I kind of got it after a while.
I thought, that’s interesting.
I mean, it wasn’t necessarily the thing I would choose to do, but the fact that I did it meant later when I was 17, 18, all right.
There’s something there that may be interesting.
So sometimes it’s just a matter of, you know, given, saying to our boys, you being interested in art, And you being interested in.
Yeah, theater.
That’s cool.
Mm-hmm.
I would also- Voice hearing that- Yeah, those are good things.
And I would tell Emma, don’t assume who your son is going to be based on some male stereotypes, what you think he should be.
Really pay attention to who he’s showing you he is.
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So we’re given Emma those two things, the community and the diversity in sports.
But I want to go back to a third thing that you brought up early on is we have to help them be self aware of their own internal feelings.
Z- Is that how you- Yeah, you’re- Rather than, you know, when we’re talking about all the traits, we’re all external.
That’s one.
I like that one.
I like the one for Emma.
I like it for Emma, yeah.
Okay, I’m glad you like it.
Well, and Michelle’s right that I think girls, it comes more organically to them in their social groups.
But the way I describe it, you know, I talked to Malia and Sasha about this is.
.
.
Figuring out how to have a good conversation with yourself and being open and kind to yourself and figuring out, all right, I’m not feeling great here and what’s going on and how can I share this? And how can talk about it? I mean, I think that’s something you wanna teach all kids.
Mm-hmm.
Um But that takes and it takes some practice and encouragement.
And I would say to Emma and all parents, period, sons, that it requires some slowing down on the part of the parent because that stuff, that’s not science.
That’s art.
You can’t schedule that.
It’s not a formula.
You have to create space for your.
.
.
And it’s not efficient.
It will never be efficient because kids, you know, they don’t open up.
On time.
They’re not always going to have a feeling at dinner time when you’re ready.
So you have to create enough space, enough downtime throughout the course of a week, a month, to give kids that space to let things unfold, to let them unfold for you.
And I think parents of sons have to understand that sons need unfolding in that emotional way as much as their daughters do.
There’s Well, it turns out, yeah, some of these studies are showing they may need it more.
They may need even more.
Maybe because they’re not getting reinforced in the outside world.
In anywhere else.
It does mean, though, that as men, we have to, in whatever conversations we’re having with boys, sending the signal that that emotional intelligence, paying attention to how other people are feeling and also paying attention how you are feeling.
And being able to describe that and and work through those things.
But that is a characteristic of being a grown man, and there’s nothing wrong.
It’s worthwhile.
And that means that men have to practice that too.
And that’s also a message for the fathers out there, among many things of we need more men present, that’s something that studies are showing.
Men are not present in the lives of children and that is having a disproportionate impact on boys.
But men have to do the self work too, fathers.
Men in general, because if you’re of a certain generation, we just saw it here.
You guys weren’t taught that.
You weren’t taught how to.
.
.
Barack, you read about it.
You were unusual in your pursuit of it, maybe because it’s the way you were raised, but a lot of men aren’t aware that their ability to unpack themselves and the need to do that work is going to directly impact young boys in the world, period.
I think you are absolutely right.
At the danger of sounding like the policy guy here, I do wanna just go back to something I said earlier.
Everything you said is right and that’s work men have to do.
I think it’s important not to divorce that work from some other stuff like men having jobs.
Totally It was not an either or at all.
Exactly, but because part of what happened when we say there are a lot of men around.
Mm-hmm.
Part of what happened, and it happened in the black community first, but then now you’re seeing it happening across the board, was a lot of male identity and status was tied up with being a provider, having a job, doing a good job, coming home.
And when folks started losing jobs because of deindustrialization and offshoring.
Obviously, this isn’t a political show, so we’re not going to go down all the reasons that it happened, but it happened.
And so then you had a bunch of men suddenly feeling lost because their identity had been so wrapped up in.
One thing.
That one thing which was being a provider.
And so part of what we have to do is, yeah.
Mm-hmm as men take responsibility for figuring out how to talk about and share feelings and cultivate relationships and friendships.
But as a society, we also have to make sure that men don’t feel redundant and don’t feel as if there’s not a place for them.
And there are entire communities now where the women are more likely to be employed.
Than the men are.
They have more avenues for supporting their families.
And that is something that no matter how much talk you engage in, if guys are feeling left out and not respected, then they’re going to act some kind of way and they’re also going to pass that on to their sons.
And we’re making huge generalizations because in every community there are going to be exceptions.
But before we close this out, I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you, the person who embodies hope, what do you see as going right for young people? What are you optimistic? This future generation.
I do think that when we look at Malia and Sasha’s generation, Avery’s generation that we don’t yet know what things are going to be like for Austin and Aaron because they’re still on the come up.
I do think this idea of men.
There are many different ways of being a good, strong, successful, happy man.
I think that’s something that- young people are more open to and recognize.
And so that’s promising.
And we see it, you know, when we talk to Malia and Sasha and their friends.
I think that what we need to do in order to take advantage of that is to- as a society, as communities, recognize that this kind of transition from the old models that you and I, Craig, grew up on.
Just like you said, you took a lot of good stuff from your dad, but then there were some modifications that just had to be made either because of blind spots, limits, lack of resource, what have you.
The times.
The times, you know.
Well, we joke that.
Talking to Malia and Sasha, sometimes they go out with their friends and, you know, they’re in a group and the guy’s got crocodile arms, you know? It’s like- Not picking up the check.
Not picking the check, and it’s like, okay, you don’t have to pick it up all the time, but if you’re never picking it up- Right.
That’s a problem.
That says something about- If you’re not opening a door or pulling out a chair, because that’s just- Common courtesy.
That’s just being kind.
Right? It’s For those of you who do not have sons, so Emma, we are rooting for you because those of us with daughters, we’ve got to have good guys out there, not necessarily to get married, but to make sure that what we’re learning, I think, is that when we don’t think about boys and just assume they’re going to be okay because they’ve been running the world You know, they’ve got all the advantages relative to the girls and all of which has historically been true in all kinds of ways.
But precisely because of that, if you’re not thinking about what’s happening to boys and how are they being raised, then that can actually hurt women.
And I would argue that some of the broad political trends we’ve seen, not just in country, but around the world, have to do with this sense of boys, men not feeling as if they are seen, feeling as if they count.
And that then makes them more interested in appeals by folks who say, you know what, the reason you don’t feel respected is because women have been doing this or this group has been doing this or that group’s been doing this.
And that is not a That’s not a healthy place to be, and I will say as quote-unquote progressives.
Democrats, progressive parents, enlightened ones.
We’ve made that mistake sometimes in terms of our rhetoric.
Where it’s like we’re constantly talking about it, you know, what’s wrong with the boys instead of what’s right with them.
We rightly have tried to invest in girls to make sure that there’s a level playing field and then they’re not barred from opportunities.
But we haven’t been as willing, I think, to be intentional about investing in the boys, and that’s been a mistake.
And I think people are starting to recognize that, so going back to your optimism.
I think there’s a healthier conversation taking place now, both among this new generation of young women and men, but also among the public at large that’s starting to see like, hey, we got to do better.
And if we do better by our boys and we’re producing stronger, more confident men, that’s going to be good for our girls and our women as well.
Well, thank you, Barack Obama.
Man, it’s been great having you on.
And you know what, since we’re talking about communities.
My daughters having such a great uncle as a role model.
You are the best example of what I was just talking about.
The love and learning that they’ve gotten from you has made all kinds of difference.
Just like the relationship they have with Avery, their cousin.
Having a bunch of boys and men in their family who are not like me.
You know, who don’t have exactly the same blind spots or, you know biases or, you know weird habits, you don’t know.
It’s just, you it made them better.
And you know how much they adore you, but that’s a great gift that you’ve given.
Me, not just them.
Thanks.
Appreciate it.
And the same goes to you for our kids.
All right.
We.
.
.
All right, these are men.
See how they struggle with their emotions.
I thought I was being pretty open.
I thought he was really good.
No, you did good.
There we go.
You know what? I love you, man.
Love you too, man, I love and I don’t know what I’d do without you.
At least it’s me!
